On the tip of my tongue S2 E11 - Breaking Barriers: Disability Awareness and Inclusion with Sarah Petherbridge

Breaking Barriers: Disability Awareness and Inclusion with Sarah Petherbridge

In this episode of 'On the Tip of My Tongue,' hosts Rob Edwards and Jonathan Hirons discuss the challenges and misconceptions surrounding disabilities, particularly aphasia. They are joined by Sarah Petherbridge, a disability trainer and speaker who shares her experiences of living with profound deafness and working in the corporate sector. Sarah emphasizes the importance of creating inclusive workplaces and the need for a shift from diversity initiatives to genuine inclusion. She discusses the impact of government policies on disability rights, the importance of technology, and the necessity of changing societal attitudes. The conversation also highlights strategies for small businesses to promote inclusivity without incurring substantial costs. The episode underscores the broader definition of disability and the significant progress needed to close the disability employment and pay gaps.

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast
00:36 Understanding Aphasia
01:13 Meet Sarah Petherbridge: Disability Trainer and Speaker
02:19 Sarah's Journey and Business
03:02 Challenges and Changes in Disability Inclusion
06:17 Employment Gaps and Workplace Adjustments
19:39 The Role of Technology in Disability Inclusion
20:30 Social Perceptions and Personal Experiences
31:29 Future Outlook and Final Thoughts
32:51 Conclusion and Resources

https://www.sarahpetherbridge.co.uk

Transcript

Podcast S2 E11 - Sarah Petherbridge

[00:00:00] The biggest barrier that I've found is the people's attitude and people's assumptions and misconceptions that is slowly intriguing, but they still got a long way to go because that quite tough, hard barrier as to bring down most changing people's mindset.

Hi, and welcome everybody, and we hope you enjoy this podcast called On the Tip of My Tongue. Now I'm Rob Edwards. And I'm Jonathan Hirons. And this podcast is a follow up to a film which Jonathan made about aphasia. So what is aphasia? Well, it's a condition caused by some kind of injury to the brain, which is often could be a stroke or could be just falling off a bike and it affects your ability.

To use language in all its forms, speaking, writing, reading, sending texts, whatever. 350,000 people in the UK suffer from a [00:01:00] debilitating condition called aphasia. Fewer than half this number suffer from Parkinson's, and yet most people have heard of Parkinson's. Whilst almost nobody has heard of aphasia.

@Rob: In this episode, we talk to Sarah Petherbridge, a disability trainer and speaker. Sarah was born profoundly deaf and worked in the corporate sector as a professional for 30 years while running a disability network for employees with disabilities and long-term health conditions.

Sarah: So I'm a, a disability awareness trainer. So a one business providing disability awareness training helping businesses create more inclusive workplaces for the day with people. And that could largely based on my own experience of living and working with my disability of profound deafness.

So I was born profoundly [00:02:00] deaf. I'm also a public speaker on disability and inclusion. And I also act as a consultant to various not-for-profit organization in particular ties. So helping them as well as a consultant about that. Yeah, so I started my business four years ago. So prior to that, I had a corporate career working as a senior tax manager for several at account with firm.

And in my last job I setup up a disability network helping people working with the disabilities and also providing ING and support.

Jon: Thank you Sarah. And thank you for coming on the tip of my tongue podcast. It's great to have you. Have you with me obviously, we, I talk mainly about aphasia, but I asked you to come on because I think that we are talking about disabilities, really.

In your introduction, , this [00:03:00] is what you do. This is your business. Obviously the government, and generally there's a lot of talk about disability and payments, does this affect how.

How you work? Or do you find people are more interested in the subject now than they were maybe last year 

Sarah: I think you are right. The changes in the government, not only in the UK but mainly in the US I think it, certainly has an impact on the perception of diversity and inclusion. , diversity will include, , disability as well. And I think it it quite alarming seeing the changes in attitude towards diversity and inclusion especially in America where they are rolling back.

DNI program, they are basically asking companies to actually rollback about their own DNI initiative. And also, they're looking to overturn legislation in the US which [00:04:00] protect basic rights for disabled people in the us. The quite alarming what actually happened in the us. We haven't got it very much in the uk, but what I'm finding that.

The UK companies are being interested by the us customers to actually roll back with their DNI initiative. Otherwise they may lose their contract. So that cross alarming, they're having to , comply with their correct, the road. They lose the business with their Euro customers. They, there is a ripple effect.

Coming from the us into the uk. And then also obviously, , the cut the disability benefits by the UK government, which is again, quite alarming. And I think what that means there is. More focus around that. And I think what people are now thinking is that we have to reframe what we mean by diversity and inclusion.

And I think , leaving away [00:05:00] from, I. Perhaps creating more diverse workforces, but also, but really thinking about what that inclusion really looks like. What does that mean? And, and reframing that did they, we can carry on creating inclusive workplaces for people with disabilities and, and, and other, other groups of people.

So I think it kind of had forced people to, to. We think about the whole diversity, including agenda and perhaps really focus on inclusion, rather on a diversity bit. Because I think the problem, it has been there, there's a perception that it become, tick. The book exercise. Trying to create the more diverse workforce but that's the perception.

So I think we need to sort of focus more on inclusion , came along with your inclusion journey. So I think, , has came [00:06:00] people's perception. 

Jon: I've come to disability later in life, unfortunately. 'cause I have a hidden disability. People with aphasia particularly have, have problems of finding new work. I think that's fair to say. Taking that as a wider thing, do you find that, that people, with any, any sort of disability, are finding it more difficult to get into the workplace again, or at all, even depending on what they've, what they've started with.

Sarah: I think there still is a disability employment gap near there. There've been some numbers going around. I don't know whether they are worse than it has been, but it's. So definitely a big disability employment gap so that more disabled people are unemployed compared to people who don't know a disability and that that hadn't gone away and that do need to be addressed.

 But not only [00:07:00] that, there's a disability pay gap as well. So, , we are being paid less than our e peers. So I think, still a problem for a lot of disabled people in getting job, but also staying jobs as well. It can be difficult to get a job because of discrimination, for example, but actually when you are actually in the job, you may find is instead, , toxic workplace culture, and a lot of the people leave, 

it is a real problem when I don't think it's being, , addressed properly. And for me, going back to the government argument about cutting disability benefits and trying to get people. Back into work isn't really the right way to go about it, I don't think. I think, , you have to create more inclusive workplaces to actually encourage more to stay with people, to get job and to stay the job They.

 Cutting disability benefit isn't the right [00:08:00] answer, ? A lot of people are on benefit because they can't get a job in the first place, and that's because of discrimination or workplaces that are not inclusive. So I think, , the focus is needs to be on that. And then only then can we address the disability employment gap.

Jon: Smaller companies probably don't have the, the, the bandwidth if you like to talk about things like this because they're too busy. Earning their crust . I speak with some experience because I used to work as a, consultant with small companies, and I know they sometimes have to double up and triple up on things. I take your point, , it completely, of course, but I wonder how they, how do they do that?

How do they make it more inclusive in their workplace? Without suffering, ,

Sarah: Yeah,

Jon: otherwise, 

Sarah: I think, a lot of smaller [00:09:00] companies may think, oh, it too expensive to start my inclusion journey. I haven't got the budget for workplace adjustment. I haven't got the the number of headcount that you need to to drive that inclusion journey.

From my perspective, I think it, , there's lots of small steps you can make in start, in your inclusion journey that doesn't cost a lot of money. The, , just thinking about things like making sure that, you can invite people in like myself, you can run a workshop and talk about their lived experiences of working with a disability.

And that will help people, start to think about what it's like to work the disability and, , think more inclusively, , that wouldn't be a huge amount of money, but it just talking, , getting somebody to talk about this. Personally lived experiences is a great way of educating people, , in a [00:10:00] small company, , to get them to start thinking about disability and inclusion.

And also a lot of workplace adjustment don't actually cost anything. They know you can have things, what we call soft adjustment building like, changing working hours and the, the flexible working hours, flexible location. , even just making, , putting somewhere, , making sure that someone sits in a quiet area of, of the office.

There's lots of things that don't cost money, and I think you need, if we start with a small step, it, it, and, and, and stop adjustment, then it doesn't. It looks overwhelming. And then that would be a good start 

Jon: Maybe the answer possibly could be networking groups that can that can bring these, bring somebody like yourself in, for example, to talk about. On [00:11:00] masse maybe you get that sort of conversation going between business owners rather than one business on its own.

Sarah: I think that's a great idea. There's so many networking groups out there. There must be one that, , do for smaller companies.

But I mean, there's also the option to join an organization that actually help businesses with their inclusion journeys. I think my own training, but I'm also an associate trainer for several training organization. And one of those is the Business Disability Forum. 

So you become a member of this organization and. You get and access to a whole range of things. So things like , training webinars, and you can ring them up. And if you have any specific career, they can give you expert advice. They, they're, they're really, really good organization.

They're helping business with their own conclusion journey. [00:12:00] I personally don't know how much it is to join, but there's an opportunity to actually network with other businesses through that organization. So that can be an option as well more local network groups down there.

Jon: I know for a fact there's one very ne quite near to where I live and I've actually spoken there on a completely different subject to what we're talking about today. You can get maybe 20 people in, in a room.

You're doing that once rather than doing 20 times. ? And hopefully people will. Feed off each other and, and find out whether they can maybe get together and do stuff. Maybe groups of companies could get together and, and talk about what they can do for people with whatever disability they have

. We're talking about everything. We're talking about people that, obviously in wheelchairs and stuff like that, which most, most people think of disability. Somebody physically dis with a disability. But obviously don't really know [00:13:00] it until you talk to someone that they've got a, problem at all.

Sarah: I think, , there's that stereotype around disability of someone with a visible difference or someone in the working, but actually , the majority of disabilities are non-visible or hidden. I think it's understanding that the definition of visibility is much broader than you may realize.

 It doesn't actually require you to have a visible difference. And it's just a, it, it, it defined and it critical or mental impairment that is substantial impacting your ability to do normal daily activities. They don't need to have a bit of, bit different be today per about legislation. And I think the other thing that people don't realize is that over 80% of disabilities are quite doing a working life. I'm in the minority being born with my disability, but over 80% are, acquired yeah, [00:14:00] doing their working life. The event was really important. That company, whatever shape inside is there, they need to be.

I'm aware of that and, and be able to support their employees because some of those employees can become disabled in their own workplace.

Jon: The people I've spoken to on the podcast already who've not only had accidents at work, people who've got, quite stressful jobs have ended up with strokes , or some sort of disability

What's what we're talking about, aphasia. You're right. I think the 80% is sounds about right to me. People get it during their lifetime rather than being born with it as you, as you were. 

Loving the podcast. Subscribe for more episodes and support the journey. Your donations help keep the show thriving. Please go to tip of my tongue film.com. [00:15:00] Thank you for being part of our community.

Jon: Your experience of course is you've come from, , from birth and you've managed to do loads of things.

You've had a successful career, you're running your own business. , you are the person that's, that everybody should look up to and say, this can be done. It obviously, must have been hard for you. Over time has it?

Sarah: Definitely. , I think, , when I started with my career, , it, the perception of disability was very different back then. And also there wasn't much disability awareness at all. There wasn't, , there wasn't the thing. Course workplace was just, , we didn't have any.

When I start with my career, the, the main perception of disability is what we call the medical model of disability. So you may know this, but , the medical model of disability the, is that know we are today because of our [00:16:00] disability. , the problem lies with the disabled person.

They, we have to fix theirselves, we have to fit in, and that was thirdly the case when I was diagnosed my career. And that's why we didn't have any disability awareness. We certainly didn't have any workplace adjustment or understanding the balance and the workplace. There was none of that whatsoever because that was incredibly hard.

But over time the perception of disability changed from the medical model to what we call the social model of disability. Under that model, the perception is that we are not disabled by disability, but by the barriers that we face, , in the workplace and in. Then, , people started talking about, okay, so what are the barriers in the workplaces?

Let us help to identify those barriers and then [00:17:00] let's help to remove those barriers by way of workplace adjustment. They, it was a very different environment, , over time of my career. . I had more and more workplace adjustment and I didn't feel that I had to fix myself, , I could open up and talk about my disability and, and get the support that I needed, so, I there's still a lot of work to be done, but there's certainly a lot more disability awareness now than there was at the start of my career. So I often look back and I just think how the hell our cope. I guess I had no choice, , because there wasn't that, there wasn't the concept of workplace adjustment back then.

Jon: But you were given a job though 

Sarah: Yeah. But yeah, I would, but I was turned down for a 

lot of jobs. 

Jon: because of your disability,

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. There was discrimination.

Jon: How can we work with somebody who's, yeah. Okay. I

Sarah: And I have, I have one perspective employer [00:18:00] that me, well, we give you a job, but we were, because you, deaf

Jon: Yeah. Tell it like it is

Sarah: Yeah. Blunt. Very blunt.

Jon: Do you wouldn't want to work for them anyway, would you?

Sarah: No, no, I wouldn't. 

Jon: that's your choice as well, not just

Sarah: Absolutely. Absolutely. But it was a bit blunt at the time, but that's how it was. ? And I think, , I think my determination and my drive got me to where I'm now, and I think, , my business really came about because I'm very passionate about disability inclusion. Having had a lot of personal experience.

I do think it's really important that the younger generation, talking about my age now, but the younger generation didn't have to go through what I went through.

Jon: Well, lucky for them, I think. And you could say that about the working practices generally have changed over the [00:19:00] years as . And if one, one looks back at one's career as, as one, does you think bli me, the things you had to do or you put up with,

Sarah: Yeah. Put up tolerated

Jon: tolerated. Yes.

Tolerated. And we're not talking about anybody with disabilities, it's just general, how people were how, the culture was,

Sarah: Yeah, different back then.

Jon: So things have, yes. I suppose if you start your career in now, the age of, I know 22, 23, it's a different story, isn't it?

Sarah: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, , if, if you think about this, that's big technology that we have nowadays, for someone like me who's deaf, , and we certainly didn't have video calls like this where I could lip read with people and, and get captioned at the same time, , and we couldn't get, we couldn't have any of that.

It was all about the [00:20:00] phone, , that triggered object of fear, the phone. And also yeah, so there was a lot more accessible technology now. So that helps with any technology barriers, but also there's a lot more awareness of , environmental barriers as well. So you. Not necessarily just sort of physical barriers, but things like acoustics, that can have a, an impact on how people work.

There's just a lot, a lot more awareness and I think. The biggest barrier that I find is the people's attitude and people's assumptions and misconceptions that is slowly improving, but that's still got a long way to go because that's quite a hard barrier as to bring down and most changing people's mindset.

And then. I could disability, but they'd be a lot better now. I've got friends who have today with surgeon. One of them is is profoundly like my [00:21:00] son and she still finds it hard sometimes, but I think her life is so much easier because of things like, it's that with technology know lot more awareness.

I. Hopefully she won't have this same struggle that I did. And all of that can have an impact on her mental health and wellbeing as well.

Jon: Yes, I'm sure that's true. On the, on the technology front, because of my, disability means that my reading and my writing is awful because I can't write and I can't, string words together on a piece of paper anymore like I used to. But the technology now is so brilliant I can do all this stuff.

 I send emails, , they've come via my phone, , before, I couldn't have done that 10 years ago even. Maybe 10 years ago, but 20 years ago, definitely not. I would've been stuck. Really [00:22:00] genuinely stuck 

 Presuming even now you've got technology that helps you.

Sarah: Absolutely. So , I've got the caption up, I've got video calls. I've got better quality hearing, , even things like that, because my old hearing aids were terrible because the technology was terrible. And so now I've got Bluetooth hearing which are sometimes where, yeah, there's all sorts of things. So like , you can have captioning software on your phone. They make a call, , the live subtitles will come up. Mm. So if you do need to make an audio phone call, you can do because they've got, , the software phone to come up with.

Jon: Okay. I didn't know that.

Sarah: You have to pay for it though. But

Jon: Well, I'm sure you do, but at least it, at least it exists 

Sarah: The things are changing all the time and , it is brilliant. So I guess you probably feel the same. I wish we [00:23:00] had all of that know when we started our career.

Jon: Yes, indeed. But , that's technology. Move moves on.

Sarah: Yeah.

Jon: doesn't it? Every, every year it seems to be quicker and quicker, ? Doesn't how quickly the, I think pandemic had a lot to do with moving things on. The reason that you and I are having this discussion now is because, partly because of the pandemic moves the.

Moved it on much faster than it would've done if we'd, , just five years of normal, ?

you know? 

Sarah: Absolutely agree with you. I mean, I couldn't have done this business , 10 years ago there wasn't that appetite for disability awareness. 

Jon: Or the, even the technology to do it.

Sarah: No, no, absolutely

Jon: you'd have to go and have a meeting with somebody and you have to drive to wherever 

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. 

Jon: Yeah. So we can have these conversations in pretty good quality as well. 

Sarah: [00:24:00] And also I think the pandemic also highlighted the fact that, , we all have differences. I think if you, all previously, if you are working in an open plan office, are always notice the differences in people, but I think we're all working from home. Then differences our disability, if you like, are more noticeable, more prominent, and I think that would then hurt with increasing disability awareness as well.

Jon: Oh, that's an interesting point. Yeah, that's true. I think that's very true. So I was thinking to talking about environments how'd you get on when you go to a restaurant or a, or a pub or whatever, because they're really noisy.

I mean, I find them noisy. Is it, is it really, I'm mean, I'm being put a bit personal here, but we don't have to do it. You don't have to talk about it if you don't. But is it difficult for you to, to do that sort of social stuff or have you got used to.

Sarah: Basically I, when I do go to the restaurant, I don't [00:25:00] really tend to go to pub, but not anymore. But when I go to, yeah, when I go to the restaurant, I do. Actually if you can do that on your online booking. You can say, can I have a quiet table, please? And the biggest thing, the biggest problem I have is having a table next to the speaker. , the speaker,

they. 

Jon: that problem.

Sarah: Yeah. And we had, we went out for, on Sunday, it was Mother's Day and the table that we had was right next to the speakers and it was quite noisy. And I do actually put my foot down and they know. So we can't sit there because , of my disability and nearly all the time they do move.

Jon: Hmm.

Sarah: swap the tables around. So I'm not afraid to actually, , be assertive and, and get best, , get the best possible table in the,

Jon: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: and that means something actually, that something now become better. Right. [00:26:00] Being more confident and being more UR in asking for support. And I think that is certainly improved over the years.

Really having the confidence if there were no, actually I need more support or we need to claim this or, so I think that's really important to people with disabilities. Having that confidence. They, I need more support. 

Jon: When did you think that started? When, you were able to do that? I.

Sarah: I think it started really around the end sort of in the middle point of my career really, because I think, like I said, the perception of disability came from the medical models, the social module, the and that meant that more know there were more disability awareness and we talk about the barriers and what workplace we need to do.

It, it felt faith, , you can actually open up me. They were actually, I'm really, really struggling. I need a workplace [00:27:00] adjustment. And then it kind of burst on there because previously prior to that, to kind of, I. Think, well, I've got a fit in. I've gotta keep quiet. It's about my disability.

, it mustn't be too difficult. It wouldn't be awkward, , fits in. Whereas now under the social model you, it, it is okay to talk about your disability and I think it's okay to ask for support. Mm. And I think that helped you confident in asking for hope as well.

Jon: Yeah. O obviously there has been a change. There has been a change over time and we, we we're all. We're all aware of it. I, I think probably you don't realize that you are more aware than you are. Did you think? It's happened fairly gradually and you with peoples without any disabilities probably realize or don't realize that it's happening, and then they're just adjusting with whatever's going on.

I find that most people are very [00:28:00] helpful and they, they realize there's something not quite correct going on here. And then I use, now I say, well, I'm sorry, I can't always say what I'm gonna say properly. And then people just give you time to do it, which is good. Maybe times passed, they wouldn't have, they would just walked past you and said, no, get on with it.

 I think that's definitely true. I think, , thirdly with the younger generation is a lot more. , empathy and more compassion and more , awareness. So, and that hope to create that safe space where, , you felt that you could stay having problems here.

They were previously you in that situation before, in a shop, you might have, I dunno, you might have just walked away, not. Or , not got what you needed because it wasn't that nobody would help.

Sarah: No, never good help. It wasn't that safe space. So I think that has really changed and I think that's really encouraging.

And I, for me [00:29:00] personally, with my disability of deafness, we've had an awful loss of publicity. There's a lot of role models out there in if you think about and quickly come down thing and the winning you that competition being deaf has done, that was the worst start of increased depth awareness.

Then, I mean, she's done an awful lot increasing in depth awareness and now we have a lot more. Deaf people on tv, and , and it kind of like snowballed from that. So which is great. And, and of course this is sign language language is now an officially recognized language, so people are talking more about sign language.

So yeah, it's called a snowballs, really.

Jon: yeah. I mean, you've got, you've got signed TV programs now, haven't you?

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. 

Jon: also politicians sometimes have a, [00:30:00] somebody signing to the side of them, don't they? So, which is good stuff, isn't it?

Sarah: it's fantastic to see in my lifetime. I mean, you can imagine if we were born a hundred years ago, we wouldn't dear, basically. And it especially like they never, so but it certainly made my life a lot easier. But also I've met so many more today with people as well.

, we're all coming together and talking about our experiences like we are today. , through my business, I've met so many today with people and that really always, , good because you get more support and need to meet people who just know what it's learned to live and work with a disability.

So that can make you feel supported and you're empowered.

Jon: the, the lived experience.

Sarah: Yeah, definitely. Definitely.

Jon: It's a big takeaway, isn't it really? Is that if you can talk with people who have the, the same problem that you have or a 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Jon: which is why I'm [00:31:00] doing this.

Sarah: Yeah, I think it's brilliant.

Jon: I do my best. It's interesting. And, and I'm talking to you because, , we are not talking about, particularly about, aphasia. But still part of the same problem, isn't it really? We're going back to the, inclusivity that we're talking about.

 We're talking about your problem, my problem, somebody else's problem. We try and try and, , fix it together

one last question. I suppose. What, what about the future? What's, what's the future for? For Sarah.

Sarah: Well, at the moment I'm very happy running my business, so I'm gonna carry on as long as I can with my business. So yeah, been running in my business for four years and so I donly where the time is going to be on it. But to me it doesn't feel like a job. Know, I absolutely love it. I'm really passionate about it.

I want to carry on as long as possible. And I think, . I, I just wanna kind on making a difference. You, it [00:32:00] is something that went deep in my DNA and that's why I started with Disability Network in my last job because I wanted to make a different so yeah, it just sort of came on being a disability advocate.

So, enjoy, , the benefits of all the changes that we've been talking about, , and also being really clear about making my life as easy as possible, ?

Jon: Well, that's Thank you very much. Thank you for your time. It's been really interesting to talk to you. We've covered most of the,

Sarah: Yeah. It covers a lot 

between us. Yeah. 

Jon: of the subjects. Thank, thank you for coming on. And obviously we will keep in touch

Sarah: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah.

Okay. Thank you for having me.

Jon: Oh, no problem. Goodbye.

Sarah: Goodbye.

Thank you for listening to this on the tip of My Tongue podcast. We hope you found it [00:33:00] helpful and informative. Now, if you want more help and information about strokes and aphasia, please go to stroke.org.uk. Say aphasia. That's SAY aphasia, or one word.org or the aphasia page of nhs.uk.

Enjoying the podcast, subscribe for more episodes and support the journey, please go to tip@myfilm.com in the description. Thank you.

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